Failing In So Many Ways

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Liang Nuren – Failing In So Many Ways

Fanfest and Crimewatch

So there’s been some furor around the new Crimewatch mechanics.  This was announced at Fanfest, and someone was kind enough to post the details on Eve-O for us all to read.

New “suspect” flag
– Minor crimes. Anyone can shoot you without penalty.
– Flipping a can for example
– Shooting someone makes you a suspect (I think)
– Anyone assisting a suspect becomes a suspect
– Not sure if gate guns will attack a suspect. Undecided yet.

There’s been a lot of back and forth between the devs and players in the thread (and you should read it), but some people have pointed out that from the presentation it sounded like people wouldn’t be able to defend themselves if they were a Suspect.  My initial take on this is that it has the ability to be the coolest thing since sliced bread: aggression becoming more like a PVP flag would mean that more people have the opportunity to shoot me… and thus more people are going to die when they do.  Can baiting with fleets could turn high sec belts into 20 man bloodbaths in just a few seconds… this could be awesome!

However, CCP Greyscale clarified with this:

Defending yourself while you’re suspect-flagged is an ongoing conversation; we’ve not decided on anything yet, and we’ll devblog when we’ve got it better nailed down

It turns out that he was more forthcoming in the round table afterwards:

One of the most disturbing moments came when, under the proposed rules, the following scenario was given:

1) Player A flips the can of Player B and gains a Suspect flag, making A shootable by everyone

2) Players C-Z go to town on Player A as a result.

Here’s the kicker – going into this preso, CCP Greyscale said that once Player A gets aggressed by Players C-Z, Player A will not be allowed to shoot his aggressors back. Yes, this is basically making anyone with a mere Suspect flag the equivalent of GCC, just without the sec drop and CONCORD spawn. Many people in the audience, including myself, collectively WTF’d and suggested that he’s off his rocker… and he seemed a bit surprised at this reaction.

For the uninitiated, the net effect is CCP has announced the intended behavior for the PVP flagging mechanic in high sec is for you to be killed by other players without them similarly flagging for PVP.  In other words: players will not be PVP flagged for attacking and killing other PVP flagged players.  This bodes very poorly for the upcoming war dec changes being announced on Day 3 of Fanfest, which are rumored to all but remove non-consensual war decs.  I am extremely disappointed by the announced changes and am very glad that I didn’t take time off to attend Fanfest.

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15 Responses

  1. If those aggression mechanics get put into place that is a joke. People already hate GCC in lowsec, we’re not looking for more of it.

  2. Serpentine Logic says:

    Personally, I am OK with this change.

    Sucks to pvp in highsec, but lowsec pvp should be less hassle.

    • Liang Nuren says:

      I’m not ok with this change because it shows an intended direction of removing all risk from high sec. I realize its a slippery slope fallacy to ask where it’ll stop… but where will it stop? Next up on the agenda is High Sec war decs (which control things like T2/T3 production risks+costs) and Faction War.

      Are you sure that the net result after Inferno will be PVP being less hassle in low sec?

  3. CCP has finally woken up a little. They want to expand their player base and non- consensual PVP in high sec is not going to draw people to play. Sounds like a good change to me, but then I’m not an angry little griefer with a 9 year old’s mentality. Low, null and WH space have wide open engagement, but then, in those spaces, people wil actually shoot back.

    If some poor, little, “defenseless” ganker gets popped, good. It’s not like any of the miners or transports had a chance against a suicide ganker. In the end, the best tears will be ganker tears.

    • Liang Nuren says:

      I’m hardly an angry griefer myself – I’m a -10 pirate that lives in WH space and roams the low sec highways of New Eden looking for gangs that outnumber and outship me. This change as presented at the round table is so hilariously carebear that every other MMO would call it an exploit:

      “What’s that? You found a way to kill PVP flagged players without PVP flagging yourself? /banhammer”

  4. Keldumb says:

    HAHAHA thank you eve university

    Time to quit eve

  5. With the amount of fellating that CCP has done to EVE-Uni during fanfest, complimenting them at every chance they get. Its becoming more and more clear they seem to think that EVE-Uni’s views towards highsec are a positive direction to head and are out of touch with just how radical EVE-Uni’s views are considered by the rest of the EVE community by large.

    • Liang Nuren says:

      I feel it is probably worth mentioning that the theory behind Eve-Uni is actually great. I’m a big fan of actual noob corps that teach people how to play the game. Unfortunately, the implementation of Eve-Uni leaves much to be desired. They teach their players to be carebearing risk averse shit talking F1-drones.

      Agony Unleashed and RvB are both superior choices IMO.

      • My thoughts exactly. While I used to have great respect for the uni, and think their wiki is great. You pretty much summed them up perfectly.

  6. Cyras DeValera says:

    I can’t view this as anything but the death of the criminal profession and all of the various lifestyles it entails. Ninja, flipper, suicide ganker (concord deathray), blackmail artist (bear deccer), or just griefing asshole. They’re all going to essentially disappear with these changes. Who would steal knowing there are 300 noobs waiting to warp in?

    Add in the high-sec friendly dec changes that are being rumored and you have WoW in space. EVE hasn’t been “dark” or “dangerous” for a long time, but at least it was never “safe”. These changes feel like they are trying to push everyone out to be slaves to 0.0-barons and the entrenched power structures that exist there unless they want to play space Farmville.

    This game used to support hundreds of playstyles, it seems like a few of them die during every expansion.

    • Liang Nuren says:

      I spent most of the day prodding Greyscale and it sounds like at least we will be able to defend ourselves. I was far less concerned with 300 noobs shooting at me than not being able to shoot them back!

      I’ll get a follow up blog post with the current state of affairs Soon(tm). Took me longer than expected to get home.

  7. Cyras DeValera says:

    Quote of the thread: “Can-flipping as-is will be impossible once the safeties are added.”

  8. Sounds fine to me. The basic “problem” here is that hisec is too damn dangerous to call itself “high security,”and the aggressors have gamed the system to the point where it actively protects them when it should be punishing. I ran into this myself this week…hunted down a guy I had killrights on, going so far as to use combat probes…and there he is in his pod with a tornado parked nearby. I couldn’t shoot either, thanks to stupid CONCORD rules (and I couldn’t steal his tornado without giving him my megathron…). This guy lives on indy ganks; he has shot almost a trillion ISK worth of ships doing it…but he’s not red, so you can’t shoot him. Summary? “Eve’s criminal system stinks on ice.”

    “CCP has finally woken up a little. They want to expand their player base and non- consensual PVP in high sec is not going to draw people to play… ”

    Bingo. Excessively catering to PVP-addicts who want to kill ANYONE, ANYWHERE, ALL THE TIME has historically limited Eve’s market appeal. These pirates have the impression that the design of Eve requires that “nowhere be safe,” and they’re wrong. That’s what *they* want, and there’s no law that says they have to get it.

    • Liang Nuren says:

      I’m frankly having some difficulty conceptualizing high sec as dangerous. I’m able to fly 10 billion ISK CNRs and Tengus around with relative impunity. I’m able to fly billions of ISK in PVP ships around in my freighter. And last time someone tried to suicide gank me I ended up with a free Domi worth of loot.

      I’m not 100% certain but I’m *REASONABLY SURE* that you could have killed that Tornado and walked away. A ship is still registered to you if you eject from it. Still, I think I can get behind some revamping of the criminal system in Eve. 🙂

      At any rate, to the core of your rant: I can’t say that I agree. That is exactly what Eve’s market appeal is and what separates it from the dozens of WOW clones that have shipped. It’s “extreme” PVP exactly why Eve Online hasn’t gone out of business.

      Now could things be better? Yes. Are they getting better? Yes. Is this the wrong way to go about making things “better”? Yes – because it doesn’t make any sense.

      If the *ONLY* side effect was that true gate camps that last for hours was the only side effect of this change, I’d be kinda ambivalent. However, the side effect of this change is that two PVP fleets could not engage each other on a gate.

      And THAT is just silly.

  9. HRRDIND says:

    This kicks so much ass I cant believe its actually happening! Thank you CCP for this brilliantly envisioned masterpiece, and for always working hard to make it better for all…

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