Failing In So Many Ways

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Liang Nuren – Failing In So Many Ways

The Case for Gallente

Hybrids have recently been boosted, and we’re still seeing large parts of the community upset that it wasn’t enough.  The primary comparisons are all Gallente vs Minmatar – though in a lot of ways that seems to not highlight the issues very well.  Let’s take a deeper look at some of the situations.

Deimos vs Vagabond

Here’s a fairly standard Vagabond fitting.  There’s always differences of opinion on 2 Gyro/2 TE/DC vs 3 Gyro/1 TE/DC vs 3 Gyro/2 TE.  I elected to go with the one that has the most DPS because its the one that’s relevant to the discussion.

[Vagabond, Std 220 Vaga]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Warrior II x5

Here’s some of the associated vital stats:

  • 30.5k EHP
  • MWD on: 2484 m/s, 8.2 sec align (3539 overheated)
  • RF EMP: 555 DPS @ 1.8+27 (359DPS @ 22km)
  • Barrage: 459 DPS @ 3.5+41(391 DPS @ 22km)

I don’t think anyone doubts the fate of a Vagabond that stray within range of a typical Deimos – and most people don’t doubt the fate of a Deimos that’s caught at range from a Vagabond.  But what happens if you try to fit a Deimos like a Vagabond and compete for its role?

[Deimos, Nano Blaster Deimos]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Small ‘Gremlin’ Power Core Disruptor I

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Hammerhead II x5

Here’s some vital stats:

  • 28.2k EHP
  • MWD on: 1741 m/s, 8.5 sec align (2481 overheated)
  • FN AM: 802 DPS @ 2.9+15 (320 @ 22km)
  • Null: 671 DPS @ 7.3+19 (452DPS @ 22km)

There’s a couple of really interesting things to note here:

  • A Deimos is approximately as agile as a Vagabond.  This really serves two purposes – to run down really fast ships (Vagabonds, for example) or to stay away from slower ships.
  • The Deimos outdamages the Vagabond out to 27km.  Depending on exact fits, this will range from 24-30km.
  • A Null Deimos will always outdamage a RF EMP Vagabond – at every range.
  • A Null Deimos will always outdamage a Vagabond under 18km.  Oddly, the same critical point exists for both RF EMP and Barrage.

Now, a lot of this was always true – the damage application has always been pretty decent from a Null Deimos.  The DPS and fittings increases didn’t hurt, but this particular fit didn’t benefit much from it.  What really changed is the ability to fit a nos/neut to preference while simultaneously being 5% faster and 10% more agile – this makes it quite a bit stronger in the nano HAC category.  So the net effect is the Vagabond – perhaps the most iconic Minmatar ship – is pushed even further from the actual battlefield.

The conclusion here shouldn’t be that the Deimos is a superior Nano HAC or that the Vagabond is a useless ship post patch.  the Vaga still has far better shield EHP and its still much faster.  What should be concluded is that the traditional Minmatar kiting niche is being dramatically eroded.  Lets look at some other examples – this time from ships which are ostensibly competing for the same niche.

Rupture vs Thorax

The Rupture’s a great ship, and the projectile boost put the endless debates over the Thorax vs Rupture being better quite firmly to rest.  But maybe its time to do some reevaluation?  Lets first take a look at the traditional Minmatar role – kiting.  Here’s a somewhat standard kiting Rupture fit – I’m never going to please everyone, but I elected to go with the neuting variant since its far more common:

[Rupture, FW Shield Rupture (T2)]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Medium ‘Gremlin’ Power Core Disruptor I
Small ‘Gremlin’ Power Core Disruptor I

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Warrior II x5
Warrior II x1

Here’s some of the associated vital stats:

  • 21.0k EHP
  • MWD on: 1591 m/s, 8.8 sec align (2267 overheated)
  • RF EMP: 478 DPS @ 1.7+16 (169 DPS @ 22km)
  • Barrage: 397 DPS @ 3.5+41(254 DPS @ 22km)

Now we bring on a similar Thorax, competing for the same kiting role.

[Thorax, Kiting Thorax]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Warp Disruptor II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Hammerhead II x5

Here’s some of the associated vital stats:

  • 19.3k EHP
  • MWD on: 1521 m/s, 8.9 sec align (2169 overheated)
  • FN AM: 617 DPS @ 2.9+10 (192 DPS @ 22km)
  • Null: 397 DPS @ 7.3+13 (268 DPS @ 22km)

Its pretty obvious at a glance that the Thorax is simply a better kiting ship.  It trades ~1.7k EHP and fixed kin/thm damage types for a lot more damage both up close and noticeably more damage at range.  We can’t even take refuge in the fact that the Rupture is Minmatar and therefore faster – because its not noticeably faster.  It just doesn’t have the speed to prevent a Thorax from closing and killing it and nor does it have the ability to project more damage at range.  Its just flat inferior at this role.

However, there were two prongs to the Rupture’s dominance.  This one’s going to be even more difficult to please everyone because everyone fits the ships differently.   While I think the 2 Gyro fit is actually more common and probably has superior overall PVP performance, it doesn’t perform as well in a 1v1 comparison with a Thorax (as we’ll go over later).  I elected to go with this one just so I could ensure that people don’t think I’m stacking the deck against the Rupture:

[Rupture, 1600 Plate 220s]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Small Nosferatu II
Small Nosferatu II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x1

Here’s some of the associated vital stats:

  • 40.9k EHP
  • MWD on: 1236m/s, 10.3 sec align (1748 overheated)
  • RF Fusion: 383 DPS @ 1.4 + 11 (0.1518 rad/s)
  • Hail: 415 DPS @ 1.4+11 (0.10626 rad/s)

Here’s the equivalent 800mm/Ion Thorax fit.  We could potentially drop down to a 1600 plate + Electrons, but IMO this just isn’t as viable due to power grid constraints.  Its worth noting that it both is faster and tracks better than the above Rupture.  It will control the fight, as much a scrammed slug fest like this can be controlled.  Its also worth noting that the ship is more expensive because of CPU limitations and Meta 4 mods.

[Thorax, 800 Ions]
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Hammerhead II x5

Here’s some of the associated vital stats:

  • 29.9k EHP
  • MWD on: 1253 m/s, 9.6 sec align (2169 overheated)
  • FN AM: 520 DPS @ 1.9+5 (0.165 rad/s)
  • Void M: 562 DPS @ 2.8+2.5 (0.12375 rad/s)

The Simple Case: Damage Drones

I know that there’s going to be people that are going to point out that Hail outdamages Fusion, so I’ll just address these things up front.  The new tracking boost means that the Ions actually track 10% better than the 220mm ACs.  From there, I’m going to say that I know that Void tends not to hit targets its own size very well and I’m something of a traditionalist so I’m simply going to rule both Void and Hail out.  If anything, its more reasonable for the Thorax to sport Void than the Rupture to sport Hail.  I think there’d be a lot of squawking over that approach to a comparison though – and I don’t (yet?) buy it in either case.

At any rate, I think its pretty obvious that the Rupture isn’t going to be controlling the fight and the Thorax has significantly better tracking for more applied DPS.  If we ignore this, the Thorax does 309 Thermal DPS + 211 Kinetic.  The Rupture does 99 Thermal + 237 Explosive + 47 Kin.  Eff HP after damage type is accounted for is 27263 (Thorax) vs 40215 (Rupture).  Times to Kill are relatively easy to calculate from there – despite the dramatically different hitpoints, its only 6 seconds apart (77 sec TTK Thorax, 71 TTK Rupture).  Replacing the 2nd EANM on the Rupture with a Gyro is actually a terrible idea and lowers the TTK difference to about 2 seconds.

Both of these fights are very close – certainly close enough that I am not totally comfortable making admittedly EFT/Theorycraft assertions about the victor in the average case.

The Hard Case: ECM Drones

If the Thorax goes for ECM drones, its DPS drops to 361 and TTK the Rupture increases to 110 seconds.  The Rupture’s expected DPS drops to 272 (including drones) and its associated TTK (on average) increases to 100 seconds.   Each ECM drone has ~700 EHP with regards to Fusion so I’d expect each drone to take 4.4 seconds (2 shots) to kill for a total of 22 seconds.  Remember that the Rupture has a base TTK the Thorax of 71 seconds, so the ECM drones need to delay or mitigate almost 40 seconds of damage.

The Rupture is now faced with two options – to shoot the drones or not to shoot the drones.  If the Rupture ignores the drones and focuses solely on the Thorax, it has a 51.9% chance of winning a duel to the death but only a 13.5% chance to actually get the kill.  If the Rupture shoots the drones, he has a 45% chance of avoiding being jammed to death.  The lesson here is that ECM drones are extremely powerful.

Conclusions

The overall conclusion?  Well, to me it seems that the hybrid boost was pretty conservative but may just have been enough to provide a relatively balanced game.  The Hybrid boosts really opened up a lot of fitting options, and the ships themselves are feeling much more mobile.  They’re going to be a lot stronger in small gang PVP, and I think we may start seeing them pushed out of their traditional niches.  There’s a lot of inertia behind this particular train, so I think we’re in for some exciting and fun pew pew times until people learn the new limitations.

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10 Responses

  1. Wacktopia says:

    Your Deimos fit has 12.5% EM resists. I think you should mention and discuss this as the more balanced resists of the Vaga, coupled with it’s ability to fit the second LSE, makes it more superior than your paper-stats make out.

    I do not disagree with the point you are making, however, I think you should address this fact.

    • Liang Nuren says:

      I already called this out in the conclusion section… ?

      • Wacktopia says:

        I’ve read it and I cannot see mention of the EM hole. I’m either being stupid (could be possible) or I missed it. Nevermind. It just came to mind and there is an easy fix by sticking a T2 EM screen on their, which gives a similar tanking pattern to the Vaga and better in some respects.

      • Liang Nuren says:

        Oh I see. You aren’t just referring to the better shield tank but specifically want to see the EM hole called out. That’s fair I suppose. Certainly it means you need to be more careful around Bingers and Zealots.

        Im not totally sold on an EM rig, but I can see where that it would be an advantage. The shield buffer on its really kinda smaller than I like though.

  2. Wacktopia says:

    *cough*Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II*cough*

  3. Yankunytjatjara says:

    EM is actually a decent damage type against gallente ships, so it is a real problem. You can’t just hope that they don’t switch to emp because they expect you to be armor tanked. The thorax amusingly doesn’t suffer from this!

    • Yankunytjatjara says:

      PS Note that in your conclusions you state that they are more or less the same when comparing dps and ehp.
      The point is good for the t2s, however between the t1s the ruppi remains the top dog thanks to the neuts: it won’t save you in a 1v1, but it will save you from embarrassing losses to a frig.
      ACs need a grid requirements nerf. If you think that I am anti-minnie check my most used ships!

  4. Decent armor Ruptures don’t fit noses – they aren’t needed. Also, using Hammerheads on a kiting Deimos is a nice mark of an EFT Warrior – use Valkyries at least.

    • Liang Nuren says:

      On Nos: it’s true – they normally fit Neuts. Neither one is going to change the outcome of the fight. I tend to like putting nos on just to ensure if I tackle something big enough to nuke my cap that I have a recourse.

      As to Hammers vs Valks: I agree. Valks are faster which means they get to their enemy faster and you can retrieve them faster. Lots of people don’t like looking at EFT without Hob/Hammer/Ogres though.

      The really funny thing is that I have a pretty high probability of running 5 Warriors/5 ECM in a 50m^3 drone bay and 4 Ogres/5 Warriors in a 125 – which isn’t optimal at all from a DPS perspective!

  5. cearain says:

    Aren’t ecm drones pretty much necessary for the no neut thorax or it is asking to get killed by a frigate? Thats the main reason I avoid the thorax with hammerheads. One frigate with a scram and you can look forward to an embarrassing killmail.

    Also if you are comparing damage at least give the rupture one medium drone.

    Finally, with overheating the mwd the rupture will likely outrun the hammerheads. They can’t outrun the ecm drones.

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